YouTube Deep Summary

As a manager, I could get rid of any one employee I wanted. This was the most brutally honest interview I've done so far. I think most pips are a combination of dishonest and or psychologically unrealistic. This is Ethan Evans. He went from being fired twice to being promoted to a VP at Amazon with a team of over 800 engineers. After it happened twice, I damn sure looked at like, who's the common element in this? It's me. I asked him about his experience working with famous Amazon executives like Jeff Bezos and Andrew Jasse. I've probably had about 50 meetings with him and about 50 with Andy. The biggest difference is Jeff's I also asked them about the behind the scenes of performance management at Amazon. What is stopping a manager from painting their report in an unfair light? People won't like to hear this. I'm actually willing to tell you the truth and tell you that almost everyone's doing what I'm doing. They're just not telling you. Before we get into, you know, the juicy parts of you kind of growing to a VP at Amazon, I think that's a level that a lot of people can only, you know, dream of or imagine of. Really curious to dig into what is even happening at those levels. I'm curious to kind of lay out your full career story. I know there's some interesting stories about you being uh fired in the com boom prior to joining Amazon, and I imagine there's a lot of interesting learnings there. So let's get into the beginning of your story which is your experience before Amazon. Yeah, absolutely. So just to your original point, I never expected to be a VP at Amazon. That just kind of evolved like many careers do. I started working and that's where I ended up and I'm very happy with it. I wanted to be an engineer and I grew up right when home computers were beginning and so I actually wrote Apple a letter, a physical letter pre- email and said, "Hey, I want to come work at your company. how do I do that? And they explained to me that at that time they only hired engineers from five universities. Uh Stanford, Caltech, Berkeley, all in California. I was in Ohio, so that seemed far. Uh Carnegie Melon and MIT. I didn't get admitted to MIT. I did go to Carnegie Melon. And so I was like on this plan of I will go work at Apple. What actually happened is uh I did a master's degree at Purdue and then I started going through startups basically all with a thread of high-speed networking. So the first company was a physical layer networking. Had an incredible run there. Got promoted a couple times, not unlike your early story. Then I joined an internet search firm that was acquired by LIOS, one of the original search engines. From there I went to a network management company that worked at the management layer of large networks for Telos. From there I went to internet advertising and audio streaming. The internet couldn't handle video at that point. I had a short detour at a company that made lighting, entertainment lighting, like dance club stuff. Uh, which an interesting detour. And then Amazon hired me and asked me to build Prime Video based on the the work I had done streaming uh music. And so there is a a chain of one after the other, but the startups were all very different, you know, very small, very high growth. And candidly, most of them other than the first one flamed out right before the dot. And that's also where I managed to get myself made redundant twice. So it wasn't just once, it was really twice. Both times helped along by the fact that I was abrasive. I'm kind of curious cuz a lot of people early in career, there's the decision between going to smaller companies versus more established ones. What was your thinking behind working at startups? Well, like a lot of people, I guess my original thinking was driven by my friends. I had friends who had joined this startup that was local to Carnegie Melon in Pittsburgh. It was founded by some professors who'd left. Uh they were talking about how cool it was and they were getting me things called stock options, which at that time, because I'm older, no one I'd never heard of and they were explaining it. I'm like, "Wow, that seems amazing." And so, it wasn't really a conscious choice of small or big. It was this apparent gold mine and my roommate who had joined a little earlier. So my college roommate who then was my roommate when I started in in his company also he joined a little earlier than I did. He joined before that company IPOed and he made his first million dollars by the time he was 25 or 26 with inflation. Now that would be like two or three million. You know it worked incredibly well. It was the startup dream. I joined a little later. I only made enough money to put a down payment on a house. But still, I think the real estate agent was pretty surprised when I was probably 25 and, you know, putting cash down on a house. I went that way because that's where my friends went. It wasn't until later that I really started understanding what does a career look like and making intentional choices. You mentioned being made redundant twice or I assume that means exiting the company, let go, laid off. Yeah. You mentioned it was because you were abrasive. Did you see it coming? And what's the story behind uh those layoffs? Oh, I'd love to tell you I saw it coming. It's not that people didn't try and warn me. My very first performance review I ever got, my manager said, I think sometimes Ethan's solution to problems would be, "Let's knock their heads together." You know, so I was I was pretty combative. He saw it. I didn't get let go at that company, but you know, this was a consistent theme. I used to say uh you probably know the the phrase, "Oh, that person's a loose cannon." Well, I modified it as, "Oh, yeah, people say I'm a loose cannon, but that's only because I'm pointed at them, right? I'm I'm busy telling them how wrong they are." Uh, so obviously that whole statement, I'm busy telling them how wrong they are, is very arrogant. That was me. So, as I went up in leadership levels, I rose based on ability and and jumping into projects. I rose to a vice president in startup level. But then I had conflict with my peers. The first peer was a product guy. He was basically saying, "We are dreaming that we're going to build all the things we're going to build in the time we're going to build them." He was predicting that our product was impossible to put together with the time and resources we had. He was actually right. I was fantasizing. I I was mad that he wasn't committed to the mission. So, I ended up fighting with him because he was saying something that was true, but it wasn't lined up with my religion, which is, "But we're a startup team together. We're gonna do it." And he was pushing back on that enthusiasm. So, we argued that company hit hard times. I wasn't let go only because of that, but we were downsizing and I had an opportunity at another startup. And so part of what I did is I talked to the CEO and I said, 'Look, I have the chance to just bounce to this other startup and you can save someone else. And he's like, "That sounds great." Well, in hindsight, of course, he was probably also pretty glad to get rid of the contention in his team. Fast forward to the next startup, classic situation. I was leading engineering and the sales VP, we were short on money because it was the.com bus. The sales VP was lying about what the product would do. He was talking it up and making a sale based on stuff we hadn't built. And of course, as the head of engineering, I'm like, we don't we can't, you know, I was arguing with him about we can't do that. The thing I didn't realize was it was either sign that contract or go out of business. And so, you know, the the fact is the truthfulness there matters, but he needed to promise the sun, the moon, and the stars, and then we would have to do our best to deliver it or go under. Well, again, in that case, I really was um let go and it was technically a layoff, but I was the only person laid off in the layoff. So, they called it a layoff. They presented it to me as a layoff, but you know, you're the only one in the room being laid off. I'd call that being fired. That was 100% about removing conflict. So, you asked, did I see it coming? The important thing I would say is no, but after it happened twice, I damn sure looked at like, who's the common element in this? it's me and why why is that? And while I was sitting around in a in a bad period of the economy trying to find a new job and struggling to do so, I absolutely asked what do I need to change? What do I need to be do differently? And so it was after that I completely yeah completely I very significantly changed my personality. I changed how I interacted at work to not get into you know arguments and shouting matches with people. Now I just handle those very differently. I ask questions. I listen. People don't steamroll me, but I don't escalate confrontation. You mentioned that, you know, soft skills obviously became an important part of you being a leader, but when you were earlier in your career, you were a little bit more abrasive. You kind of went in the direction that you thought was right. No one would doubt that soft skills are important, but I'm kind of curious like early career. Do you think being abrasive and super aggressive on your direction was actually better or do you think it would have been even better if you had soft skills? I mean, I think if I had had soft skills with that energy, it would have been the best. But even today, I tell people, look, you have to be somewhat pushy. The best phrase someone recently taught me or used, they called it being strategically annoying. And I like that because annoying isn't as bad as abrasive or confrontational, but it gets at that you can't just be compliant or helpful. You've got to have an opinion and be willing to fight for it. It's really a question of how do you fight? I was fighting more in the classic way of getting red in the face or raising my voice or using critical terms of like that's a dumb idea. There are better ways to argue or to debate and I was doing it the bad way. I think I got away with that for a long time because I was right many times uh or driven. But ultimately the best way is to have the skills to do that. Well, you mentioned in some of your writing that when you lost your job as a VP at the startup that one of the big sources was sneaky corporate politics and let's say you someone was in a leadership role and they want to kind of get ahead of that. What's the story behind the politics there and how do you do it right or how do you do it well to prevent that kind of situation? Well, there's two things going on. First, when you're loud and abrasive and confrontational, if you are, if you push too hard, people who disagree with you will stop telling you. They'll just stop talking to you and start talking to others about you instead. So, you want to be careful when you are strategically annoying that you aren't so much in people's faces that you shut them down and they go behind your back instead. So, I kind of cause those situations by causing people to say, "This guy's crazy. we'll just go see if we can get him removed. The second thing is I didn't build enough alliances with others. So let's say I disagreed with person A very strongly. I didn't have enough alliances or close enough relationships with B, C, and D so that when A would go to them, they would tell me. Instead, when A went to them, they're like, "Yeah, we see he's a problem." And you know, it became, again, I literally dug my own grave in hindsight. And what I would say you need to do is yes how you interact with person A matters having the social skills there but the other part is building your set of allies or at least people who respect you enough to include you in the conversation and I failed to do that. I didn't realize as an engineer and I think many engineers fall into this. We think that being right is what matters and we don't realize that relationships and how other people feel about it matters just as much. Even to the point where people will pick a worse solution that feels more comfortable. That happens all the time. It sounds like you got repeated feedback through situations that happened in your career early where soft skills might have been something that could have been better and later in your career it sounded like it was one of your strengths. So I'm curious what made you flip the switch? Yeah, it is this incident of being let go the second time where I was a layoff of one. It was more direct than the first time I left a company. It was very pointed and I also had trouble because it was right after 911 and and sort of the first dot bubble. I had trouble finding another job. And so that really there was an interviewer. I was at an interview and I was telling the story of all my accomplishments and trying to get the job. And he said, "Everything you say sounds fine, but I just really struggle to believe that if you were that valuable, these companies, even though they were struggling, wouldn't have found a way to keep you around." And I actually realized he was kind of right. Like if I were that valuable, they'd have kept me around. And so I asked that caused me to think, okay, what's the gap? The gap isn't my technical skills. It isn't my ability to drive and get projects done. It's my ability to work well, play well with others. And so then I got deeply into and I recommend this to people, the psychology of work and what motivates people. Of course, how to interact, how to ask questions, how to draw people in. Um, as an engineer, we love, we're taught in school to make statements. The statement is the answer is this, the method is that, the code should be this, as opposed to ask questions. Once I sort of realize, oh, look, this works. I can lead and motivate people and inspire them and and this is a fun puzzle. Then I was hooked. And so now I study it kind of full-time in a way. I saw, you know, after you kind of worked at some startups, you decided to move across the country and take the job at Amazon, which is pretty big move. I'm kind of curious what the story is behind that move and how did you know it was worth joining Amazon? This is a fun story I don't know if I've ever told. I was working at that search engine, LOS, and Los had a partnership with Barnes & Noble. Barnes & Noble knew nothing about being online at that point, but they wanted to be. And so they partnered with this online company and part of my job was to figure out why they were losing to Amazon. So I had some calls with some people at Barnes & Noble. I talked to them and what they were doing and what they could do and what they couldn't do. And so I learned about Amazon by viewing them as a competitor to our partner. And that's what taught me like, oh, this Amazon company is completely different, way ahead of what was called bricks and mortar, right? Like the physical world. Then when Amazon called me, because they actually reached out, a recruiter reached out, I was able to talk about how I knew Amazon as this competitor to Barnes & Noble and how I had been impressed and what I had done with Barnes & Noble to try and help them compete and how hopeless that looked. And I think that probably appealed to Amazon of like, okay, this guy is seeing where we're going. As for taking a risk, you know, I was at yet another startup that was struggling with product market fit and funding, and Amazon wasn't. So, there was both the the being impressed with them, but also being sick. You know, Amazon was had IPOed at that point, was a public company. They were not profitable, but they still looked they were 10,000 people, which now they're way over a million, right? So 10,000 seems quite small. But to me, working in firms of dozens or hundreds, it was like, oh my god, this has got to be stable. Look how big it is. You know, when you when you got to Amazon, I saw you were hired in as a, you know, senior manager and eventually you got promoted to um, you know, director first and then later to a VP. I think like there's not a lot of information on what those jumps even look like. So, I'm curious, you know, for instance, the promotion to director. What What is even the the expectations like what does a promo like that even look like? It's interesting. Times have changed. Amazon was smaller. I remember seeing the paperwork to become a director and the paperwork said to be a director in Amazon, this person should be one of the 100 most important leaders in Amazon. But of course it was already outdated and there were well over a hundred directors uh when I when you know when I saw this. So things were moving fast because it was a hyperrowth company. What they were looking for specifically was someone who could lead a business or an effort on their own that only needed highlevel goals. And in my case my promotion specifically came from some good luck and a good decision. So I could then I think this is common promotions either happen as what I call lifetime achievement awards. Someone's there and they do good work and they do good work and eventually the process grinds away or they have an outsiz event. In my case, two things worked in my favor. The first is there was a project that came up. I made a very high-risk call. My management disagreed with doing the project, but they had told me show that you can be the leader. So, I specifically said to my SVP, I said, "Unless you order me not to do this, double negative. Unless you order me not to do this, I'm going to do it." And he's like, "Great. Hang yourself." Well, I built the project and it worked. And it turned out to be a big success. So, in my eventual promotion, the key line was it was a partnership with Teo, the DVR company. The key line was without Ethan, we wouldn't have had Teo. So I kind of made my chops on being a high judgment decision maker who could make things happen. The second thing is my VP in between level uh was leaving. I had gone to him and said look I want to be promoted to director and I had threatened to leave very politely if I wasn't promoted. Well, it was going to make him look really bad if he left and I left cuz the project would fall apart as opposed to being threatened by my threat in a way. He had pressure to like make sure he secured me. And the specific words I use are interesting. When I threatened, the learn soft skills. I was very careful. And the words I use, I said, well, my career is very important to me, which no one can argue with that. my career is very important to me and I need to know if it's as important to Amazon because if it's not as important to Amazon as it is to me I have to think about that and of course you can hear the like hey take care of me or I'm out but I never said anything that someone could be like screw you you can't threaten us I just said my career is really important to me and if it's not as important to you you know as the representative of Amazon then I need to think about that it's led me to the philos philosophy that you can find polite and civil ways to raise any topic. And so my promotion came because I proved I could lead a business and move Amazon video forward and because I again strategically annoying. I was willing to put pressure on it. That boss wouldn't have done anything if I hadn't been pushing. He wasn't the sort of guy who was just like, "Oh, I should probably promote Ethan." It was 100% because I put the squeeze on. I was like, "Well, up or out." That wording is is so it's it's subtle, but it's so good. You know, I could imagine that have gone way worse if you had said, "I need this promotion. You need to help me." Rather than kind of implying it and being polite with the wording. And I think I've seen in many people's uh careers as well that sometimes their growth comes from being politely pushy. You know, maybe they not exactly threatened to leave, but it's it's clear that they're asking for something and the manager feels the demand of that. Not in a stressful way, but just in a when they're thinking of who to promote, they kind of that's the first person on their short list because they're asking. As a leader, you know, people won't like to hear this. It's I I believe in telling the straight truth. It's one of my tagline. As a leader, there have been times where I have had two equally qualified people on my team uh or you know approximately equal and one of them is agitating for the promotion and threatening to leave and the other is a nice person who's willing to wait and so they wait. And a lot of people say, "Well, you just rewarded the jerk." Maybe, but I had a triage. I'm going to get one promotion done this quarter or this year because it takes work and you only need so many leaders at the next level. and I have a very realistic choice of move up this person and keep them even though I'm a little bit being held hostage or move up this person and lose the other one. I'd like to tell you I always did the right thing and you know help the team player, but I I can't actually tell you that's true and I certainly wouldn't tell you other leaders do that because we have to think about our short-term problems to some degree and it's not a perfect world. And so, yeah, if you're that person who's expecting to be rewarded because you're the silent hard worker who's always collaborative, you know, maybe you dislike me for it and you're like, well, you sound like a bad boss. I'm actually willing to tell you the truth and tell you that almost everyone's doing what I'm doing. They're just not telling you. So, I don't know, bad, good, it's the reality. you mentioned in your promotion story, you said explicitly there's a wording in your promo packet or somewhere that said, you know, X would not have happened unless Ethan was there. And I think that's a really important distinction when it comes to, you know, crediting and and stuff like that and promos. There's a lot of people in big companies, there's multiple people involved and, you know, people ask, should I hoard it so that I get credit or what? But really all that you need is that that narrative is obvious. If we pull Ethan out of this, that wouldn't have happened. And if that narrative is true, you get credit. And that's often what drives these these promos. You know, if that project would have just been fine, it wouldn't have hurt me. I might not have gotten promoted, but it wouldn't have hurt me. But if it had blown up, I was the one who pushed for it over the leadership's not disagreement but advice not to do it. And so had had I gone against that advice and then it been a big disaster, you know, that that could have very easily cut the other way, which I think gets the part of the point. If you want to grow rapidly, you're going to have to take some risks. But the risks are recoverable. Remember, I was also a jerk earlier in my career and lost some roles and I still became an Amazon VP. Like venture capital, taking some risks and having some of them work out and some of them fail still moves you forward faster than always playing it safe. And if I have any one regret, it's actually that I didn't take more risk. I could have gone further. I think like if I had my career to do over again, I'd probably take a lot more risk. By the time I was trying to become a vice president, I had been at Amazon a long time, I finally truly understood how everything worked. And that was a longded process where I lined up stakeholders. I got my manager on board to support me. You know, I had a good relationship with my manager, something a lot of people struggle with. I was lucky enough that my vice president was stable in his role for about 2 and 1/2 to 3 years while we worked the process. My timing was good because he was reorged within 6 months and after that. So had I been just 6 months later, I'd have had a new boss and it would have, you know, been a setback for sure, you know, rebuilding trust and all that. So I can go more deeply into it. The big thing I did there is I've developed this idea I call the magic loop which is working with your leader, your manager to figure out what they need you to do and then form a partnership with them that amounts to I'll do everything you need done. You do you do one critical thing which is make sure I'm rewarded for it. And that's our deal is I can either work for you as a standard cog in a box or I can really push and go above and beyond, but there's got to be a payoff and and can we line up and agree to that? And my manager, I remember he came to me one day, my vice president said, "Okay, I'm going to try and get your VP promotion through this cycle. I'm going to do everything I can. I can't promise you anything." But he was at a place where he's like, "Okay, we're gonna take the shot. I'm gonna lay my reputation on it." And I had, it took two and a half years to get him to where he was ready to put his credibility down. Uh, luckily that paid off, right? We both got it done. He was happy, I was happy. That partnership makes a lot of natural sense. I mean, you help your manager, your manager helps you, and they want you to grow. People think managers are withholding promotions at any level. That's not true. Speaking as a vice president, I want all the directors I can have because the better my team is, the easier my job is. So, I want high performers. I want you to be good enough. I want you to have the skills, but I can't do that for you. So, people say, "Why didn't you promote me?" And I'm like, "You did not promote yourself. You did not get there." If you can get there, I want that. It's good for me. I know you have a story from, you know, right when you started at Amazon where there was a high performer on your team and you established that partnership with them, but you weren't able to get their promotion and they ended up leaving. Yeah. So, I had a star young engineer who uh made this deal with me and I made the deal in good faith. He said, "Oh, I will help ship our very first version of our product. I'll do whatever it takes. You get me from what we called SDE1, which was the new college higher level to SD2." And I'm like, great, got it. I'll do that. I had always worked at startups where when you wanted to promote someone, you just kind of went to your boss and maybe HR and said, "We should promote this guy." And you did it. Amazon had a process and they only did promotions twice a year and they had a cycle. Our project launch was a mess. Not his fault, but we had problems. I was busy looking at the problems and trying to, you know, fix the product. The cycle came and went. He's like, "Hey, where's my promotion?" I went and asked like, "Oh, how do we do this?" and they're like, "Yeah, you can do that in the spring, maybe." The the factor was my and I've written about this very publicly. I own it. It was my ignorance. And so, the problem is we made a deal in good faith that I didn't know how to keep. So, that's my error. The advice for someone making the deal is figure out is your manager a veteran? Do they know what they're doing? You know, do they understand the process or do you? And this is a common problem because people get new managers very often. So even if I hadn't been the idiot in this situation, uh it could have been somebody else who was hired in. Can do you understand the process? I think part of the issue is that engineer, which is not his fault, but he also didn't know. And so it was an ugly discovery for him like, oh, we missed the date and sorry. He didn't know to tell me like, hey, Ethan, you got to be doing this. you know, there's a date and you got now is that his responsibility? It's not. It was mine. But the tricky part is it's your life. And so if you're the engineer in that situation, probably people all know the story from scrum and chickens and pigs, right? The pig is committed. The chicken's only involved in the ham and eggs restaurant. The manager is the chicken in this. Their life isn't on the line. It's you. You're the one who's going to get hurt. So know the process and make sure the manager is like, "Okay, I'm going to do this." this and you're like, "Okay, well, by September 15th, are you going to have a document done?" And if they say, "Why does September 15th matter?" That's like a warning sign, right? Why does that matter? Oh, that's the deadline. Oh, there's a deadline. Like that, you know, that conversation would have been very revealing if he'd have known to have it. And I feel terrible about it. It's why I've written about it publicly is I don't want it to happen to anybody else. So, this guy left. He joined another big tech company. He's had an amazing career there. It cost him a year. And I I feel bad about that. But the truth is careers are 20, 30 years long or more. Things in life are going to cost you a year sometimes. That's not fatal. So when you hit that, I just wasted a year. You can either mope it and be depressed or you can move on. He moved on and was successful. I've moved on and been successful. You can you can make that change. So after you got promoted to VP, I saw that you switched business verticals. or you went to the Twitch partnerships or managing the Twitch partnership and then later into gaming. I'm curious, it sounds like the Twitch acquisition was right before you became kind of in that role. Were you the VP in charge of plugging them in or what's the story behind that role? Amazon's a big company. So, it had a process that every time it bought a company and we spent 970 million on Twitch, so a billion dollars. They take a VP and they make them kind of what you'd call the integration liaison, the the person who's going to facilitate making sure you get your billion dollars worth. The trick is they leave the CEO in charge. So IT Shear, we talked about, you know, you're aware of Imit. Imit was still in charge of Twitch. I was not his boss. Instead, I purposefully sought out that role. We talked about working on soft skills. I had become vice president running Amazon's app store and I had a team of 800. And so I was now very good at running a global team of hundreds of people. But that's where I had authority. I decided to challenge myself and go take a role where I had a goal, help Twitch integrate, but I had no authority. I was simply an advisor to the CEO. I had no team. And I had to achieve this goal without being able to give this guy any orders. And here's a guy who's just been made wealthy for life. He's 15 or 16 years younger than me. He's in a business that served mostly teenagers and people in their 20s. You know, he's 33 or so. I'm late 40s at that point. How am I going to influence him in how to run his sort of millennial Gen Z business when I'm neither? And I I I wanted that challenge to work on my soft skills. So I gave up the team of 800 to go figure out how to do this. It's a fascinating story that worked out really well and I really enjoyed working with EMTT as well as of course learning to live stream on Twitch and all kinds of stuff. When I see these founders with, you know, rocket ship trajectories, I don't know the exact size of Twitch at the time, but maybe hundreds maybe low thousands of employees at such a young age. I'm curious when you work with a a young founder like that as a seasoned manager with tons of experience. What are the gaps that you notice in someone that has such a unique management trajectory or are there none? Oh no, there were plenty of gaps. I think EMTT would agree with that if he were with here with us. We might not agree on what the gaps were. So first to give you scope, Twitch was several hundred employees at that point and grew within the next couple years to be a thousand. So he was on a very rocket trajectory. The biggest problem was Twitch was a classic venture funded company. It was bleeding cash, you know, at a huge rate. And in fact, one of the gaps was in the beginning, Emit and certainly members of his team didn't even think this was a problem. Well, they had always been able to get venture money. And now the way they originally looked at it, I remember people in Twitch on the management team looking at me and saying, "Well, now that Amazon's bought us, you guys have lots of money. Why do we need to worry about profitability or advertising? Like, why can't we just focus on the gaming?" And my job was to help move them to profitability. So, I'm like, "Whoa, Houston, we have a problem. They don't even see it as a worthy goal." Meanwhile, you know, the management chain above me, because I ultimately reported into Andy Jasse, who's now CEO of Amazon, he wanted profitability quite soon. So, you're trapped between a a group of people who are like, "Ah, why does this even matter anymore? You guys have all the money in the world." So, that was one gap. Another gap that I would say Emit learned the hard way over time, it's very easy to be loyal to your early employees, but not all of them can scale. And so Emit went through a big learning cycle of I'm gonna have to hire in somebody over this person who was with me from the beginning and I'm gonna have to explain to this person who's a friend of mine, love you. You're going to make a lot of money because your stock options are now Amazon shares, but you're not going to remain whatever chief product officer or fill in the blank. And uh that was a that was a big discovery I think for Emit that he had to replace some friends or level them and a few of them quit and were angry. You you mentioned that you reported to Andy Jasse the now CEO of Amazon and I imagine you had some proximity to Jeff Bezos or had been in meetings with them comparing and contrasting the leadership styles between the two. Is there something that stands out from each or maybe a story that you think illustrates those things? Yeah, so I knew Jeff pretty well. Yeah, I'm not going to claim he's like a best buddy of mine, but I've probably had about 50 meetings with him and about 50 with Andy in different contexts. So, I know them both, you know, spending dozens of hours with them and working for them. The biggest difference is Jeff's the founder. And what that means is he can take gamles with the company that others won't. So, a story I remember is in a budget discussion, our chief financial officer was trying to slow down Jeff's spending on something and he said to Jeff, "Well, you know, Jeff, we only have so much money in the bank, trying to like just pump the brakes a little because Jeff was let's do this and let's do this and the price tag's going up." And the CFO said, "You know, Jeff, we only have so much money in the bank." And Jeff looked at him and this was the previous CFO to the current one. And he said, "Well, Tom, how much is that? Because I might want to spend it." And he was just telling his CFO like, "Thank you. Your job is to count the pennies and my job is to allocate them and don't don't confuse your role and my role." And Andy is a more classic I don't recall if he has an NBA. I think he does, but he's a more classic business leader. He's not going to tell his CFO, you know, stick a sock in it. That he's going to see that he has to partner. And that's because it's not his toy, right? He is the paid leader, but it's not his company. And that no matter how much I respect Andy, that's just very hard to get over because when it's your toy, Jeff definitely felt that he could, you know, sort of take metaphorically take the whole company to Vegas and bet it on black, right? That that like he had that right. I built it. I can do what I want with it. Whereas for Andy, he helped build it, but he has to actually do what the board wants with it and what Jeff wants with it. And that's just different. Both Jeff and Andy put great demands on me and other leaders. For me personally, for my style, I felt Jeff was emotionally behind me and supportive. And I felt Andy was kind of always waiting to see if I'd screw up. And so if we brought in 10 executives who work for both of them, not all of them have had that experience. I found working for Jeff much more inspiring and not just because he was the founder, but because he seemed enthusiastic. Andy seemed more ready to ask more probing questions. And I at least as a personality need that leader who yes, they ask all the questions, but then they're like, "Okay, I'm on board. Let's do it. We'll do it together." And I never got a like we'll do it together from Andy. I always feel like I got okay, it's your plan. You're on the hook now. Let me know when it's done. It didn't inspire me the same way. You mentioned being scrutinized and I saw that you had written about how you started the prime gaming vertical with some some peers and you mentioned that it had failed multiple times. I'm kind of curious, you know, what does a VP's performance review look like if the business vertical they started is failing? So this is a flaw of big companies because often when I say something was failing, we would hit most of our goals, ship this, build that, add this feature. We might even hit some financial goals, but we weren't achieving the vision. The vision of Prime Gaming, the original vision Jeff wanted was to make Amazon a real player in the video game business. At one point his vision was how can we be as big as 10 cent which is the largest gaming company in the world out of China. So we met a bunch of goals but we were never on track to become like that. And certainly Prime Gaming has never done anything like that. Amazon Game Studios all the gaming pieces they're very niche. So when I say it failed multiple times I think it failed against the vision. you can get a good review for ticking all the boxes and hitting like all these interim goals and not really be on track for doing anything significant. Right before I left the Amazon App Store to join Twitch, I told a peer I said, you know, this year I'm going to hit every goal and it's going to be meaningless. And the proof of that in some ways is now 10 years later, Amazon has shut down its app store. They use it internally, I think, but all external use has been, you know, for phones and whatever. They they've given up after 10 more years. Well, I saw that coming 10 years ago. But big companies can get lost in, well, we're hitting the goals and they confuse hitting the goals for doing something actually valuable. The bottom line is I was rated well as a VP every year of my career. And yet, when I look at did some of the things I do really succeed, I'm very proud that we launched Prime Gaming and we put Amazon in the game business, but it hasn't gone anywhere. And it won't surprise me if in 2, three, or 5 years, Amazon shutters that. Now, it also won't surprise me if they get some leader who figures out how to make it big. But there's a lot of sort of zombie products in a big company that no one quite wants to pull the trigger on shutting down because that's a big decision and an admission of failure, but no one really knows how to make big either. So they just kind of bump along. It sounds like even forward-looking, like being in it, you you hadn't achieved the goals yet and you looked at the goals and you said these are not impactful. Did you ever have a thought of let's make the goals more ambitious or let's change the goals so that they're the ones that align with the vision? Sure. The problem is you know you're going to be judged on them. So there's a tension between the goals you think matter and the goals you have any idea how to hit. So, I'll I'll I'll tell you for the Amazon App Store, the goal was somehow compete with Google on on Android phones when Google comes pre-installed and Amazon is a sideload like that people have to decide they want and then opt into. I had no idea how to compete basically with an endemic store, a pre-installed store on its own phone. That was the goal. Of course, I argued strongly against being judged against that because I didn't know how to do it. I would say other leaders who came after me who were quite hardworking didn't obviously didn't know how either. For my review and my pay, I want goals I know I can nail. And for the good of the company, I actually want goals that I have no idea how to do. And so, when I said this, I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to nail all these goals that I fought to be measured on, and I'm going to miss all these goals that actually matter because I don't know how to do them." And it turns out maybe they were impossible. The the you know again if you think about this aspiration oh Amazon wants to be 10 cent in games. Well this is like if you work at some e-commerce startup saying well you know Ryan we want you to take a goal to be a second Amazon. How are you know you might be like well I get why that would be valuable. I do understand that's a great vision but I'll pass. with your tenure as a manager at Amazon, I kind of want to talk about, you know, management practices like, you know, stack ranking, performance-based layoffs, pips, those types of things. So, I'm curious, you know, Amazon's pretty famous for stack ranking and, you know, really aggressively managing people out. Yeah. Um, what are your thoughts on on these types of systems? About 10 years ago, Amazon ran an experiment where after getting years of bad press for stack ranking, they removed what was called the unregretted attrition goal. So, Amazon has a goal every year for what they call unreged attrition, which means people, it's a nice way of saying people we want to leave. Um, and we don't care if you pressure them into quitting or they get fired. It's just there's a number and you put people on a list of folks you want out and you can either improve their performance to where you take them off the list, they can quit or you can fire them. But you have to hit a goal and it's usually like 7% a year. Sometimes it's as low as four, sometimes it's as much as seven. So Amazon uses lots of words to kind of cloak this process, but the bottom line is it's fire the bottom 5% or so. Here's the thing. When we remove the goal, managers immediately stop having hard conversation and talking to their struggling performers because without the pressure of having to do it, it was just easier to focus on your good people and let that problem person hang around because it's not in a big company. It's not costing your burn rate that you know about or care about and you don't have to have that unpleasant conversation and you also don't have to be the bad guy. One of the worst things about being a manager is you may have someone who isn't very good but is wellliked. They're friendly. They are outgoing. They bring donuts. They organize the parties. Everybody likes them. And so now you have to not only have a hard conversation with them, but if you do move them out or if they talk to other people like, "Ethan's trying to fire me." Then everybody's like, "Why are you trying to fire Ryan? He's awesome. We love him." Well, it may be that you know you have lots of performance problems, but other people aren't feing those. So when we remove the goal, people stopped having the hard conversation. So the next year, Amazon put it back and it's kept it every year since. So on the one hand, many managers avoid actually performance managing if they're not forced at gunpoint. An unfortunate truth. On the other hand, because there's a list and because there's a goal, you would be then be in a situation where someone who had a chance to succeed, maybe you had to put on the list to make your quota. And you ask how how how well the pips work. I think most pips are a combination of dishonest and or psychologically unrealistic because once I've decided that I'm going to put you on this list or once I've decided you're enough of a problem that I need to write up this plan and have this ugly conversation with you mentally I've already moved to we have to get rid of Ethan, right? We have to get rid of Ryan. They're not good. recovering. It sort of doesn't matter what you do unless it's amazing. I've already decided and so my cognitive bias is going to be self-fulfilling. Um, so what I recommend, you know, this has happened. I coach people. I have had half a dozen people reach out to me for coaching and say, "I was just put on a PIP at Amazon. I I really want to succeed. Help me." And I've tried and they've all gotten fired. And so now when people call me, this is funny. They call me and they say, "I'm on a PIP." And I'm like, "So, what you need to do is spend that time on the PIP looking for your next job because you're going to be fired." And they're like, "No, no, I'm going to overcome it." And I'm like, "Good luck with that. Tell me what happens." And 3 months later, I get a note that says, "You were right. I was fired." And the reason I state both people I coach and people I don't is, of course, you could suspect, well, maybe I'm a lousy coach and I didn't dig them out of the hole. But the people I didn't coach got fired, too. It's a self like once you're at that stage, it's going to happen. Very few people ever dig out of them. Now, I believe some managers in their minds start a PIP with honest good intentions, but at least in Amazon, you have your HR business partner and your boss asking you all the time, "How's it going? When are we going to exit that person? I need them on my quota." You know, if you actually want to take someone off a PIP, more than likely, your manager is going to be saying, "Well, who else are you going to put on?" Because we still have to meet the number. So you're then you're looking around and you're like, well, I put the lowest performing person on my team on and now I'm being told if I take them off of PIP, I have to put somebody else on. So of course you're like, well, so the conclusion is companies stink at performance management. They don't train managers how to do it. They don't train managers how to have the conversation early. They don't create a system where you can talk to people and say, you know, this isn't working out. Maybe you want to leave because that opens you up to a lawsuit. We just have a dysfunctional performance system. In your writing, you you wrote something that said a manager can fire anyone they want and HR is not there to protect you. I would have thought there's checks and balances to this that that is not true or I guess I would hope that it's not true. What What is stopping a manager from from painting their report in an unfair light? Or is there nothing stopping that? I love that you called this out. I agree with what I wrote. The nuance is as a manager I could get rid of any one employee I wanted but I can't get rid of every employee. And so if I create a pattern where I'm driving one employee after another out I will eventually get caught and burned for that because we do look at what is a manager's turnover rate. My point was for any single employee, I can absolutely, if I choose to end that person's career at my company. And at Amazon, it's as simple as put them on this list. It's partly who strikes first. So, by the time you go to HR, I've already put you on this list and told my story of why I think you're bad. And now you're going, "No, no, it's unfair. He hates me." Well, the problem is the people all the people they've heard from who are legitimately bad are saying the same thing, right? They're they're saying, "No, I'm actually good. It's my boss hates me and doesn't understand me." So, they hear that story every day. So, when you legitimately tell it and it's actually true and it's just I hate you, you just you end up sounding like everyone else. And so, that's why it's stacked in my favor. Now, I I have never done this, but I've looked at the system and just seen I have people all the time who say, "Well, my boss told a lie about me." Well, again, it's your word versus mine, and I'm the one who's got the higher level, maybe the more tenure. If I choose to say, "Well, you know, Ryan looks really busy, but he's mostly just doing pull requests on other people's code." I can downplay what you're doing. Because see, I can tell this story of Ryan is an amazing engineer. He makes everybody's code better because he does all these insightful reviews and he's upleveling the whole team. That's narrative one. Same facts. He did 700 pull requests this quarter or whatever. Narrative two is, you know, Ryan actually doesn't contribute much. he thinks he does and he spends all this time doing code reviews, but look at how little he's actually written himself and really he's just busy nitpick nitpicking people and churning away. And sure, his numbers look good, but those numbers are actually a sign of the problem. Now, I've taken your same performance and spun it two ways. My point that people aren't going to like is a manager can do that. And maybe they're doing that because they're a jerk and they've decided you threaten them and they want to get rid of you. Maybe they just have a different view. You think you're doing really valuable stuff and they don't and they're saying what they honestly believe. But the point is performance that you would think is really easy to measure like look at these numbers. Look how many valuable code reviews I did can be used either way. Nothing about software engineering performance is so objective. And so bad managers, truly bad or evil managers do get caught eventually. But clever managers, you just want to get rid of one person would be able to do that because they're in the driver's seat. And more importantly, they get to make the preemptive strike. They get to tell the story about why that person's a problem before that person ever knows it's happening. And so it's kind of like, yes, you can slap the mosquito after it bites you, but it doesn't take away being bitten. I mean, it's it's unfortunate that that's true, but it also illustrates the power of storytelling in a way. The exact same facts can be spun as a bad thing or a good thing. So, people are going to hear this and believe like, oh, see, managers are just like personally firing people because they hate them. I am sure that happens. It's not in a manager's best interest. They they are judged on accomplishing their goals. that, you know, good managers are trying to find partners they can work with that will help everyone achieve. I just want to be honest that if you do have a difficult boss and you make them angry and they're a vindictive sort of person, beware they hold like you're bringing a knife to a gunfight. They're the one with the gun and you're probably going to lose. If you have a boss like that, don't get in the knife or gunfight. Either figure out what you can allow you to make friends with them or find a different manager. That's the actual point. Don't think that somehow HR is going to come investigate and rescue you. Definitely that just isn't what they do. Um I want to be mindful of your time and so I have you know one last question for you which is that if you could go back to your career right at the beginning when you had just graduated and entered the industry and give yourself some advice what would that advice be? So I'll answer in two ways. One of them I did and one of them I really didn't. The thing I would do is always prefer high growth. My whole career was in companies that were growing very rapidly. And I compare that, people talk about a career ladder. Well, my ladder was always an escalator. I could climb, but it was also moving up for me. And so, the reason I got where I went is because Amazon grew 100fold while I was there from 10,000 people to a million. Revenue grew like 80 times. The escalator went up and I rode it. I also climbed. So, that part I would keep the same. The thing I would change is probably not surprising you. I would wake up much sooner to jobs are still with other humans. It's great to be an expert. It's great to be right, but build the skills to have the relationships, make the friends, get to know lots of people, and you don't have to be an extrovert to do that. I was a classic introvert. I've certainly learned to be more extroverted, but with online tools like LinkedIn or pick your tool, you can make a reputation and build connections from the safety of your keyboard in your darkened room all by yourself. And so do do whatever works for you, but get known because it works so much better. You know, Amazon called me for the job, not the other way around. And you want that happening, so build that reputation. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, Ethan. Um, you know, at the end of the interview, like to give you an opportunity. Where can people find you or is there something you'd like people to check out? So, the easiest place to find me is either Ethan EvansVP on LinkedIn or Ethan Evans.com, my website. I'm well known for teaching classes about how to get past the promotion hurdle we've talked a lot about. So, if my style of straight talk in this interview works for you, then that's what I do all the time. And if that's your flavor of ice cream, then I'm your vendor. Thanks so much, Ethan. Really appreciate your time. Yeah, my pleasure, Ryan. Thank you for having me. Hey, thanks for watching the show. I don't sell anything or do sponsorships, but if you want to support, you can subscribe on YouTube or you can leave a review on Spotify. And I'm always looking for new guests to interview. So, if anyone comes up who you think you really want to hear their career story, uh, let me know and I'll try to reach out to them and get them on the show. Thanks for listening as always and I'll see you next time.