YouTube Deep Summary

## Introduction [00:00] right hi everyone welcome back to the history in 20 podcast and today we have a very special guest uh Dr Carlos Conde Solaris who is program leader for BA history at North Henry University in Newcastle so his interests learn largely in late medieval Spain with a focus on interruptions between the spiritual systems of Christianity Judaism and Islam Carlos has also appeared as a guest in Al Jazeera front 24 trt amongst other TV channels and as well as being a well-respected published academic he's also written opinion pieces in el mundo the globe post chronica popular the conversation and more so welcome to the podcast Carlos it's great to have you here I'm delighted to be here with you adjuster thank you very much for having. ## Who was Christopher Columbus [00:50] me no problem at all so today we're going to be discussing Christopher Columbus and sort of who he was and the discovery in inverted commas of the Americas so the first question I have and I think a lot of viewers are like listeners will probably have as well is who was Christopher Columbus Carlos who was he well that's a very difficult question to begin with because as you know uh Christopher Columbus is a very mysterious character we know relatively little about him and uh and it is it is quite a peculiarity when it comes to studying this this particular historical character it seems to be very um from the minutes that we have of the of the Courts of Castile and the way that he introduces himself we know that he has some very powerful Connections in the court of Castile the Duke of Medina Telly seems to know him well and some of the uh some of the higher advisors of the Catholic monarchs seem to know who this guy is but we don't know much about his family and we do know about his descendants and this in part because one of his Ambitions was to build a line it's for him that is supposed to to live a legacy for his family which leads me to think that perhaps he came from a relatively low social extraction and there are several theories about where Christopher Columbus was from the most popular one is that he was from Genoa from from Italy and and this is purely because he was a sailor and a lot of sailors were from Genoa at this time when we look at his actual writings when we look at his log books many of which have actually been transcribed by other people later on which makes it a little bit difficult to gather where he was from through his language we we see that he's someone who seems to speak and who seems to write in a sort of universal International type of Spanish that was fairly common amongst the people of the sea that is there are turns in Portuguese there are turns in Catalan there are turns in Italian but in general it's quite difficult to place Christopher Columbus and to know who he was exactly which makes it makes him all the more fascinating as well definitely yeah that was a great answer so for anyone who might might not know the sort of period we're talking about is like the late 15th century here obviously 1492 being the key uh um and another key couple of figures from that era and that year in particular were these uh Catholic monarchs in Spain at the time so I just wondered if you could talk us through who those Catholic monarchs were. ## Who were the Catholic Monarchs [03:25] right so uh Fernando of Aragon Fernando second of Aragon and Isabel the first Isabel of Castile the Catholic monarchs were responsible for bringing together the Christian kingdoms of the Iberian Peninsula in 1492 put in an end to a landalus with the fall of Granada on the 2nd of January of that same year of 1492 also with the Alhambra degree which meant the end of Judaism in the Iberian Peninsula also in 1492 and finally on the 12th of October by sponsoring that expedition by Christopher Columbus that ends up in America the first expedition of Columbus ends up in the Bahamas on the 12th of October of 1492 a lot of things happened in 1492 under the reign of the Catholic monarchs were also responsible under their watch the for the establishment in 1478 of the Spanish branch of the Inquisition perhaps the most the most powerful of late medieval early modern monarchs and two characters that are also very very very interesting because neither of them was meant to be the heir to their throne in the case of of Fernando of Aragon it was meant to be his brother Carlos obiana to inherit the kingdom in the case of of Isabel she arrives in the throne because of her conspiracy against her against Enrique IV who's deemed incapable of ruling and Isabella's place there as a young as a young woman in place of him the nobility expecting her to be a sort of of Puppets that they could rule and ending up being completely the opposite that is one of the most characterful monarchs of the medieval early modern period two incredibly interesting characters both of them and two characters that had a very powerful set of protagonists writing for them as well so we have both a historical image of the Catholic monarchs but also very much a romantic one. ## Why did they sponsor Columbus [05:25] that's another great answer as as per yeah and uh I know you mentioned they sponsored his voyage Christopher Columbus's Voyage so why did they sponsor his expedition um and why did they choose him in particular to sponsor his voyage to the Americas or his voyage of Discovery I suppose it must have relatively low stakes operation for the Catholic monarchs this to put it in context what was spent in the in the Expedition that eventually discovers America and that triggers The Encounter of civilizations was actually much less than the Catholic monarchs have actually spent for the Dowry of their daughter Catherine of Aragon for her wedding in England this was relatively small money they just provided one now one big boat which was the one that Christopher Columbus would captain in this Expedition the other two the carnivals the two carabells of the pintong brothers were actually sourced for privately by Columbus it was a relatively low stakes thing to them and it has to be understood in the context of this um of this frenzy for re-establishing the trade route with the Far East with China with the Indian subcontinent with Japan in the context of the presence of the Ottoman Turks in the Mediterranean that is the Iberian Kingdom Portugal in particular had been doing the the circumnavigation of Africa in order to reach the the Indian subcontinent for quite a few years the kingdom of Castile had already established itself in the Canary Islands of course and uh Christopher Columbus was he had this idea he was an obligator it was a geographer as well and he had the idea that it was possible to reach the Far East by means of navigating West that is he thought that the Earth was much smaller than it actually was of course he didn't account for the presence of of America which was of course unknown in the own world at that time but it was an expedition that perhaps promised well to find perhaps a few more islands like the Portuguese had found the authorities like the Spanish of palm in the canaries and perhaps even the possibility of establishing a new trade route with the Far East that was the idea and of course what was to unfold was unexpected to say the least yeah definitely yeah um so you mentioned the big ship that he went went on my writing thinking that's the Santa Maria. ## The Santa Maria [07:45] yeah it was the now Santa Maria it was the bigger of the of the three of the three boats and that was captained by Columbus himself the other two boats were Capital Time by two local Sailors from wellba from Palos De La Frontera where the Expedition left which were the Pinson Brothers yeah right so just going on delving into the boats a little bit like the three boats that went uh what sort of do we know about life on board the Santa Maria and those other books what was life like for those Sailors on board but very difficult and very difficult not just because of the logistics of the trip to give you an idea they they depart from the uh from the Canary Islands from lagomeda in early September and the trip to eventually the Bahamas takes over a month and what made it possible and this is one of the calculations that Columbus got right was that they departed from as far south as possible that is it was much easier to navigate the ocean sea which is the way in which the Atlantic was known um back then from as far south as possible because of the prevailing currents of the Atlantic so they have departed from from Andalusia and they have restocked in the Canary Islands and then well that Journey took about over a month it was a very difficult one and one anecdote that I think is very telling is that Christopher Columbus himself kept a double accountants of the of the journey itself that is he kept about double log one for himself in which he annotated the actual distance that they had that they had traveled and another one for the crew in which he vastly underestimated how far from sure they actually were because he knew that there was no way that they could return so it was a one-way trip this one but because he knew that his crew was not a particularly well versed in navigation and was not particularly disciplined either a lot of these people were people who had um were um uh have just left prison they were criminals in some cases very poor people and he knew that there was always that the possibility of a rebellion on board so he tried to uh well he lied to them basically in order to to make sure that that didn't come to come to pass they reached the Bahamas on the 12th of October uh when they are at the very um at the very end of their ability to navigate any further so it was a very very difficult Journey yeah and it seems like the The Voyage like landed at the right time um with obviously supplies were a note that they've only had so much of everything on board that could sustain The Travelers and that was my next question actually where he landed which you answered there being the Bahamas. ## The Bahamas [10:30] um so when he landed what did he discover when he was there I think we spoke about when I did the module at Uni there was two um different types of tribes people or something as well so if we could just discuss what he discovered and the types of people that he found that would be good yes when he arrives in in the island that we believe is one Ani and one of the small Caribbean islands of what they are the Bahamas this is an inhabited Island and uh Columbus and his crew described the natives as the tainos because this is a word that they utilize when they are communicating with the Europeans with the Christians with the Spaniards in their language meant we are the good people we are good people and um they seem to communicate in what we can only imagine was perhaps a sign language and the body language that there were people in other islands called the Caribs who were hunting them who were hurt in them and who were the evil ones this of course was something that was um that was very convenient from the point of view of the European of the Christian mentality not that dichotomy between the noble savage between the good people the people who inhabit this sort of paradise on earth and the evil ones from whom they neither protecting this is something that evolves very well for instance with the uh with the feudal mentality okay these are people that might need protecting these are people that might be a loyal servants because they are good people and what we know about that Civilization is that it was relatively primitive uh have nothing to do with the very Advanced and very sophisticated civilizations of the continent that are going to be encountered later on the attacker and the Inca in particular and we also know that this was uh well an agricultural civilization and the receiving civilization as well that is it was a civilization that was already receiving that was already much smaller than it had once been because of the of the resources that they were utilizing and what the islands would actually provide for them as we know with the introduction of European diseases they are going to be decimated to the point of of Disappearing these are the data you know those indigenous tribes of the of the islands of the Caribbean yeah that's and that's a really sad uh result of what what happened and sort of foretelling of what was to come later on with European colonialism but when when they arrived and some of the things that they discovered I think remember you mentioned they had to the people who were writing about it the Spanish people they had to invent words of things that seemed like they'd never seen waterfalls before I just thought that was interesting point you might be able to elaborate on yeah it's fascinating to read the not just the log books of Columbus but also the first the early Chronicles of the natural historians like like Oviedo for instance and the father chroniclers who find themselves in the situation where they have to describe for the purpose of of showing the Catholic monarchs or their sponsors what it is that they are doing and what it is that they and where it is that they are because they have the beginnings member they don't know where they are and and they have to describe those Landscapes they have to describe the the fauna they have to describe the the plants that they see and a lot of these things are new that is they don't really have a European framework with which to to explain what it is that is in front of them and quite often they resort to magical language and then obviously if we jump uh four or five centuries into the 20th century and we look up the of the literature of the Moon of Latin American literature of magic realism of Garcia Marquez and all of these offers that present the extraordinary with a very downward language a lot of it is actually inspired in the works of the early Chronicles of the conquista that is that sense of wonder because they have discovered a new world a place that they didn't know existed and a place that looked very different can't you imagine from The Plains of Castile and extremadura where many of them came from which with these landscape submission Central Spain where it's all you know yellow Fields as far as the eye can see the sky and nothing else and all of a sudden all of these places all of these very exotic places uh turn up in front of the rise and they seem to lack words really to describe what they what they are seeing what they do have is an incredible sense of enthusiasm which is transmitted in into those sources that's and that's just incredible like that shows how sort of powerful that was for those people who who arrived there having never seen anything like it in the lives that they have to resort to this like you said this magical language to to properly describe it so upon their return now back to Spain my next question is how was Columbus perceived back in Spain and Europe at the time was he hailed as a hero or was he seen as more of a conqueror the fate of Columbus was a very common one for many of the Conquistadors that were to come later Columbus himself was not against other he was a sailor that is that's what he was interested in and in fact he's criticized by some of the of the settlers by some of the people that he brings in his Expeditions because he just wants to keep discovering new islands yes wants to keep sailing he doesn't want to settle anywhere that is because that's where he feels at his you know his Navigator is not a governor he's not a conquistador he's not a man of the military he just wants to keep seeing places basically and and planting the the the Castilian standard in those places that's what he wants to do it because he thinks that that's what his mission is when he returns and obviously having been given the well the responsibility of ruling the places that he's um that he's discovering well he's found one thing clearly that is he's someone who's not a good um a people leader um very early on the Catholic Queen well of course you see 4B it's uh slavery she tries to to ensure by means of uh of her of her Testament as well that the indigenous people are treated with with as much love as as a Christian is capable of giving us his rights in her Testament yet Christopher Columbus doesn't doesn't quite follow those guidelines he's going to antagonize the settlers he's going to antagonize um the the clergy the people who are there in order to ensure that the order of the Catholic monarchs are observed and in fact he's going to return to Spain after his third voyage as as a prisoner that is um his um uh his fortune is very similar to that of of other conquistadors that is many of them felt entitled uh of course you know to to much more than they were given by the Spanish monarchy the Spanish monarchy realized that the extent of the power that these people could have in in a place that was much bigger than Spain itself was something that the Spanish monarchy needed to control that is they needed to ensure that those places were actually ruled from the Iberian Peninsula rather than from the new world itself and in those Dynamics we have already the beginning of the Creole movements that are going to lead later on several centuries later to the movements of Independence which are largely the movements of rebellion of the white settlers rather than of the indigenous people against the monarchy precisely because of those Dynamics where where the Metropolis tries to rule a centralized Empire rather than allowing the settlers to do their own thing yeah so that was that's really interesting you mentioned there how it led to sort of centuries later movements of Independence so I'm just going back a. ## Early European Colonialism [18:30] little bit before that and sort of we've kind of discussed what we can learn from his expedition but was was his expedition a forerunner for early European colonialism like when you look at the sort of 19th century 18th 19th century the Scramble for Africa could you trace that backside Columbus discovering the the Americas is that something that's a link can be forged there or is it just completely different when we when we look in particular at the I mean there's a very good historian who passed away fairly recently John Elliott who's perhaps the best uh or one of the very few who have actually taken seriously the task of comparing the Spanish and the British Empire and uh and he has compiled a series of of British sources that tell us very clearly that the British had um the experience of the Spanish pretty much in mind when it came to to the expansion of uh of Great Britain uh across across the world both as a positive and as a negative example that is they paid very they paid attention to what um what problems the Spanish monarchy had in in America and they tried to learn from those when it came to to their own Expeditions yes absolutely I mean the of course you have to put some Nuance into all of these the British Empire is going to operate through um well through trading companies and and so on and and it's going to to establish itself in parts of the world that are perhaps much more uh developed economically than was the case of the Caribbean for instance and that list through many different Dynamics but without question with um 1492 what we have is the is the first iteration fortuitous one at that the first iteration of of Europe expanding itself beyond beyond its own real Beyond its own continent without question yeah yeah that's great that's great answer so. ## Legacy [20:30] I've just got one question left for you and that would be what is Christopher Columbus's Legacy what Legacy did he leave behind and how is he perceived today well I'm very controversial Legacy as we know our group of the world in the case of America we have Columbus Day we have the dia de la raza in Mexico and we have on the 12th of October as well uh in Spain still the national day of Spain which is also controversial in Spain as you can as you can expect the remains of Christopher Columbus today are most of them in the mausoleum in the Cathedral of Seville but before that they were in Havana they were in biology they were in many different places which which tells us you know throughout history his legacy has been one um that has been linked to colonialism of course you know he's the one who gives name to the to the concept itself and also uh is someone who's whose Legacy has been celebrated by by others as we know still there is a there is a major both in the USA and in in the Hispanic America there is still um there is still a celebration of sorts of of the events that took place but a celebration that's nevertheless very very new ones that is I would say that over the past uh half century or so and especially after the fifth Centenary After 1992 there's been a revision really of the legacies of Columbus in light of indigenism and that's how you were referring at the beginning of the of this interview about the discovery with the quotation marks they encounter Civilization now that perspective of the indigenous that decolonization of the curriculum that we have in universities right now that is of course his legacy remains a very controversial one most of the positive aspects that the Spanish Empire left in America were left after Columbus rather than by Columbus and Assad spell is a figure that has remained the controversial but nevertheless and Incredibly important one because most events in history tend to happen in circles that if they tend to happen several times one thing that's never going to happen again is the discovery of America for sure so that makes it a very a very unique historical event yeah and that's a fantastic summary of Christopher Columbus so just before I stop the recording just like to play some record thanks to Carlos for coming on you've been fantastic guests and it's a privilege to have you on certain academic who's so well respected in in the field and you're a great lecturer at Uni as well so I'd just like to say thanks again Carlos for coming on thanks to you you were a fantastic student as well and I'm really glad that you're doing this it's super entertaining thank you very much cheers so that's it for this episode everyone we'll catch you up the next one cheers bye.